was it just a dream or heaven?

[BlueLily]

Okay, I'm a newbie here. Fair enough. I hope this is the place to talk about controversial stuff that otherwise the general public would simply kick you in the cunt for even having a different opinion on. Especially when it comes to (gasp) religion/heaven/hell etc.

Here's my thing. Ben Breedlove, the unfortunate teenager who died on christmas day after going through 3 near death experiences and expressed them on youtube. (RIP and all, truely tragic and my heart goes out to him where ever he may be.) The reason I'm bringing this up now is because of a minor arguement I had with a classmate about it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...periences.html

See article above if you've never heard of this.

Here's my thought:
Does everyone really believe that his near-death experiences are visits to 'heaven'?
He spoke to a rap artist in this 'peaceful place' who isn't even dead? Doesn't that void the entire thing as being nothing more than dream while he was half alive? Why does everyone assume it's heaven? If feels foolish to me to believe that instantly.

I'm wondering if i'm the only crazy skeptic person to feel this way. Others refute by stating the "aparition or angel" choosed this form of a celebrity to visit him. Although it's a nice thought, I'm still very skeptic.

I hope I'm wrong though. Any thoughts?

[Victory]

Well, religion, spirituality - call it what you want - is built around answering questions we have no means of answering otherwise. Obviously this practice have seen its own share of evolution over the years as we continue to discover more and more about the universe and how stuff works. Still, one of the largest and most pressing questions still confound people - what happens after you die? There's still a lot of questions around near death experiences because it's hard to study what happens to the brain at those moments. There's quite a few theories, and from what we know a scientist can explain pretty well, but the concept presented is so instinctively terrifying to most people, that a lot of us wishfully seeks a better answer.

It's not inaccurate to say that people become religion exclusively to escape the concept of death and mortality. I should know, I was one of those people as a kid. I believed in God when I was little and around the age of 12-13 I became terrified to the point of manic depression over the concept of death and my faith became entirely devoted around this bargain with God, that I would be a good and devoted Christian if he would let me enter heaven.

As my faith became to come apart at the seams I was no longer comfortable with the reality I had created to substitute the grim concept of non-resistance. So I instead turned to assorted spiritual explanations, and placed my faith in ghosts and reincarnation - 2 topics I had been spoon fed to believe by my mother. It seemed logical to me and it once again allowed me to escape eternal non-existence without the previous rigid agreement with God.

My story isn't exactly rare, it's probably one of the most common examples you'll find. People don't want to die, so we reject that inevitable part of life and mortality for other "improved" solutions. Of course, I don't speak for all 7 billion people, but I don't find it mystifying at all that people turn to religion or spirituality to explain death - it's a very looming concept, and it's frightening enough to change people.

What we think happens is that hallucinogens in the brain are released pre-mortem and in conjunction with hypoxia and tunnel vision you get a lot of these wacky near death experiences that people are so fond of. We can't really tell for sure, since we haven't had much chance to study a human brain as it dies - as far as I'm aware.

[Big Boom]

There has to be something that occurs after death, I mean what would be the point of our existence if we just ceased to exist? It would be like living a life in vain. Honestly, I think after death we all become part of everything, if that makes sense. All symbiotically connected.

[Mastersarge Redux]

That's actually pretty scary when people think about that Vic.
Though sometimes, when it comes to spirituality and anything that shows ghosts and spirits, there is no easy explanation for those. Of course, our minds do create a false image of what we see purely out of fear or sometimes wonder, but at other times, there are events that can't be explained or shown. I know because me and my family had an encounter a couple years back but that's a story for another time.

And me, I'm not really afraid of death of any concept. But it's the dying that scares me. I don't know where I'll go when I die nor do I really care as much because I know I lived a good happy life, determined to push through to the end. But that's just me.

[DrunkCat]

There has to be something that occurs after death, I mean what would be the point of our existence if we just ceased to exist?

So just because you demand something to happen after death means there is something?

Also, as for the the news article and such, look up DMT. Shutting down your nervous system and producing your own world is your minds last line of defense. Near-death experiences (as in the visions/hallucinations associated with them) might as well be lucid dreams.

[Big Boom]

I'm not demanding anything, I'm only hoping there is. Living a life believing that nothing happens after death is sad.

[Rimmy]

I'm not demanding anything, I'm only hoping there is. Living a life believing that nothing happens after death is sad.

I don't think so, it just means you should try to enjoy your life while you live, if there's nothing left afterwards at least you had fun in your life. Some people may say that all of this is pointless when there's nothing left after you're gone, but hey even if it is pointless, might as well enjoy it while you can, right?

[BlueLily]

I feel I agree with most of you. Its not that I question the existance of heaven or hell. I question if THIS particular dude had it. Everyone embraced it instantly. Can't anyone realise he had a dream with a LIVING celebrity? There has been evidence of life even after the heart stops. It's very difficult to define when a human person dies now a days.
Although I'm leaning more towards the chemical/hallucigen explaination.

Whether heaven exists is another matter. But if god/heavenly world likes to send angels in the form of celebrities, can my angel come as Daniel Craig for me?!

There has to be something that occurs after death, I mean what would be the point of our existence if we just ceased to exist? It would be like living a life in vain. .

So if we don't go anywhere after we die we don't have any meaning? Our existance while living has much more meaning in of itself! Death doesn't give it meaning, it's just the ending credits.

[DrunkCat]

I'm not demanding anything, I'm only hoping there is. Living a life believing that nothing happens after death is sad.

Why is it sad? Why do you hope for there to be something more amazing than atoms coalescing into a self-propagating embrace?

[Zolen]

Its not all that rare for things like this yes, everyone is afraid of their own morality, and wondering what happens after death. There are billions of religions that go into detail about death, not because they know what is after, but they hope what they are saying is in fact whats after.

A idea that it might all just be more a dream might be exampled a bit by what I in fact saw before.

I have in fact almost died from food poisoning (my fault) twice (now I fear my own cooking) first time when I was still christianish (I had no idea what kind, I just was raised thinking I was and that the Christian God was real) I was in a tunnel with a light at the end, angels leading me, tempting me to follow. Second time when I was agnostic and was studying many religions and their meanings, I was a ghost hanging around my body, strange marking and symbols covering my ghost form glowing blue and red. Other then the ones I knew of from the get go most of the others so far I have been unable to find so they may have just been made up for what ever that was.

After the first I was obsessive for a year or so, then it calmed down as I started to question religion then became agnostic only to have a event that now was leaning to my new way of thinking I became obsessive over that for a year then.

So looking at two very different visions that seemed to fit my ideas at the time perfectly. It just seems like it might be a simple reaction of the brain, acting as it thinks I (or anyone else) would want it to look.

[BlueLily]

Sounds like shinto belief there Drunkcat. And yes Zolen could be right that some hallucigent agents when release will show us dreams that our subconcious firmly believes in, this kid was obsessed with that celebrity.

But at the same time, which is I think BB's point, it is sad that we can't see our past loveones when we die if it's nothing more than a dream. Once they are gone, they are gone. Makes it harder to overcome that you know? I'd want to see heaven moments before I die and then poof, darkness forever. Instead of just resting there saddly and go blank. If I'm going I'd like to see something awesome at least.

[Rockonman]

Sounds like shinto belief there Drunkcat.

What?

I say that this will eventually lead into a religion-or-not argument, so I will preface it with this: I think that since it's a toss up between the two, I have decided that I will believe in religion to be on the safe side. If I'm right in believing in religion, good; if not, whatever, because then there's nothing after death.

[Varthonai]

Why is it sad? Why do you hope for there to be something more amazing than atoms coalescing into a self-propagating embrace?

Look, I appreciate that there is a lot of poetry to be found in what we have already learned about the way the universe works, and about the clockwork recursive self-improvement of the pool of human knowledge based on the scientific method, but the fact remains: atoms coalescing is mundane, and the immaterial eternal preservation of consciousness is miraculous. The latter is more amazing by default, and if you believe that there is ultimate justice on the other side then there is every reason to hope for it.

That being said I really don't think near-death experiences have anything to do with heaven. If we actually did get a glimpse of it I don't think we'd be allowed to come back with the memory intact.

[Shinoi]

I personaly do not believe in after life. Mainly because I was raised so and because I don't believe in anything supernatural/unproven/defying laws of logic and physics/something like that.
I also see it just as some silly escapism from inevitable. Which is very logical, since people hate the fact nothing will remain after they die and so live further in hopes of after life. And what is also interesting, despite me having a big death phobia, I've never seeked the idea of entering heavens (or hell, whatever). Kinda ironically I've created a detailed system of afterlife for my comic.
So, I am not attacking anyone here; if you believe in it, then fine, I couldn't care less. I'm very open about opinions of others, but...

Living a life believing that nothing happens after death is sad.

Oh, so my life is sad. Why, thank you. I could respond with something better, but I'll instead return to my sad life, free of all religions and beliefs in supernatural.

[Killing_Time]

I'm not demanding anything, I'm only hoping there is. Living a life believing that nothing happens after death is sad.

Once I realized what I believed in I thought the same. However, knowing that I only have my lifetime to achieve what I want to see and do is great motivation to see and do what I wish. My only regret is that I will never live to see the amazing stuff the human species are gonna pull off through the next generations from now on.


By the way, welcome BlueLily if I haven't said that already. I do not think near-death experiences is a visit to heaven. I do believe I heard a theory that the brain is basically at a point where it's getting a little messed up by being out of balance and on its way to dying. I find that far more plausible than the concept of visiting a different realm for a short amount of time. I don't know where you're from, but it sounds like you come from a fairly religious society if you find it strange to be skeptic about this concept.

I find it wonderful that some people believe in a type of afterlife. I think it's a very comforting thought both for those who are dying and those who have lost or is in the process of losing someone. I have great respect for anyone using that in order to accept death, and heck, perhaps as I grow older I realize I gotta go fight someone in the hope of getting carried off to Valhalla by the Valkyries.

[Oscar]

First off, welcome, BlueLily.

There has to be something that occurs after death, I mean what would be the point of our existence if we just ceased to exist? It would be like living a life in vain. Honestly, I think after death we all become part of everything, if that makes sense. All symbiotically connected.

It's a sad thought to think there's nothing after death. I do honestly believe there isn't though. I think humans are animals like any other species on earth, only difference being we happened to get really smart. If we smack a fly it would probably have lived the life in vain, and if a human dies it is also in vain, if you prefer that way to put it.

[Big Boom]

Oh, so my life is sad. Why, thank you. I could respond with something better, but I'll instead return to my sad life, free of all religions and beliefs in supernatural.

No need to be rude, maybe I phrased it wrongly. It's just a personal opinion, living waiting to die is sad. Hoping that something happens is like K_T said, comforting. In the end we will never know what exactly happens until we die, so what's the point of arguing? Also when did I say anything about religion...?

[Shinoi]

I found it kinda rude and since you apologised, I forgive you. But still, I don't find it sad to be, as you said, "waiting to die". I could go and say it's sad to believe in something we don't if it exists or not, but that would be stupid and I won't do it.
I am not waiting to die. I am living for every moment of life I can enjoy. Because I believe nothing happens after death, I want to experience as much as I can and want before I die. I don't and can't seek comfort in idea of afterlife, because as I explained earlier, I don't believe in it out of various reasons.
If we are now at subject like this, I find idea of immortality and eternal youth much more appealing. Not that I believe it's possible, but still I like it much more.

Also, did you guys notice that everybody who got this experience is a Christian? I mean, I've never heard of Muslim talking about this. Maybe I'm wrong, but still.

[Kreekakon]

I also choose to live out my life the fullest I can before my death, but there is one thing that cannot be denied: which is death comes sooner or later.

I, myself am not sure whether or not to believe in an afterlife. My standing on it is more of curiousity. What exactly happens after death? Is it an empty void? Is it heaven? Or is it like an eternal sleep? If if is like an eternal sleep, I would wonder what that would be like, because normal sleeps seem to begin, and end instantly. What would eternity be like?

Once I do die, and IF my mind remains intact, I'll be satisfied that that mystery would have been solved. One of my regrets though would be that I couldn't go back, and tell everyone else what they're to expect.

That's basically what goes through my mind when I think of the subject.

[Paperback Writer]

[Rockonman]

Ha, good point, Paperback.

Also, did you guys notice that everybody who got this experience is a Christian? I mean, I've never heard of Muslim talking about this. Maybe I'm wrong, but still.

Yea, now that you point it out, it does seem that way. Also, you only hear about it through media sources. Sensationalism, much?

[DrunkCat]

Look, I appreciate that there is a lot of poetry to be found in what we have already learned about the way the universe works, and about the clockwork recursive self-improvement of the pool of human knowledge based on the scientific method, but the fact remains: atoms coalescing is mundane, and the immaterial eternal preservation of consciousness is miraculous. The latter is more amazing by default, and if you believe that there is ultimate justice on the other side then there is every reason to hope for it.

We are going to disagree here due to very fundamental differences in ideologies. (Not that it needs to be said other than for context to new members. :3) Consciousness is still a product of atoms; there hasn't been anything (substantial) to suggest otherwise. So my beauty still stands because in essence they are the same beauty, that of Nature.

You can also believe in whatever you wish, and hope for whatever you wish. That's our gift of reason. But just because you hope to be able to breath in a vacuum doesn't you will be able to (and I mean literally, not with the aide of an artificial atmosphere). We are also not the only ones with that gift of reason. There are so many species/living organisms that share it that it adds weight to the idea that consciousness is just another step in self-propagating organisms.

We are nothing but a bag of chemicals and consciousness is the product of their chaos.

[Flashlight]

Religion is too mainstream.

[BlueLily]

Lol @ Flashlight. Simplified post.

Shinoi has a point though, you never hear a muslim talk about 'heavenly' experiences I think? I could be wrong?

Muslim 1: " I nearly died but wow! I saw all my 40 virgins waiting for me! But when they started singing to a bad 80's song I got sent back."

Muslim 2: " I think Allah just rick-rolled you."

Yeah, I don't think so.

Drunkcat, I never heard of the conciousness made of atoms. It's a nice thought though.

We all have to just wait and see. It's sad we can't see what the future will do. I stil hope that before I die I see cars fly.

PS: Thank you all who welcoming me.

[Zolen]

We all have to just wait and see. It's sad we can't see what the future will do. I stil hope that before I die I see cars fly.

They already exist